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Subject: "difference in scales" Archived thread - Read only
 
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nash
Member since Aug-23-03
13 posts
Nov-07-03, 06:45 PM (PST)
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"difference in scales"
 
   there's only a few notes difference between the 2nd position blues
scale and the 2nd position country scale. i'm having trouble
seeing how those few notes make one sound "bluesy" and the other
sound "country".
is it just the notes themselves, or are the two scales "played"
diferently somehow?


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Bill Phelb
Charter Member
Nov-23-03, 11:52 PM (PST)
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1. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #0
 
   The countyr is more like a major scale and the blues is more like a minor scale. The minor scale sound over the major chords in blues makes it sound "bluesy".

Bill


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gloster
Member since Aug-21-06
3 posts
Sep-29-06, 07:19 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #0
 
   I too have that problem so I deciced to start learning the scales as well as jamming along with cds etc
My problim is, if the blues scale 2nd position played on a c harp begins on 2 draw G when you play the same scale on an F diatonic harp does it start on 2 draw same as the C, or on the G 1draw or the G4 draw and continuous to Bb C Db etc or just the same progression on all keys ???

If you get an answer let me know
guest@iinet.net.au


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danielbernard13
Member since Mar-9-06
76 posts
Sep-30-06, 07:04 AM (PST)
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3. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #2
 
   You said: "My problim is, if the blues scale 2nd position played on a c harp begins on 2 draw G when you play the same scale on an F diatonic harp does it start on 2 draw same as the C, or on the G 1draw or the G4 draw and continuous to Bb C Db etc or just the same progression on all keys ???"

Quick and stupid answer: If you change the key of the harp you are playing you change the key, not the scale. Play the harp in the same position. Just imagine that you are playing the same notes and let the harp change the key.

If you go to the home page and look on the menu on the left about half way down the page you will find the scales that you are talking about

http://www.harmonicalessons.com/scales.html

2nd Position Country Scale in the key of G played on a C harp:
G A B D E G

2nd Position Blues Scale in the key of G played on a C harp:
G Bb C Db D F G

Now just look at the tuning charts:
http://www.leeoskar.com/mjrshtfrme.html

OK if you are playing an F harp the 2nd position the country scale will come out like this:
C D E G F C
This is also know as the Country Scale played in the key of C.

If you play your F harp in the 2nd position the blues scale will come out something like this:
C Eb F Gb G Bb C
This is also known as the blues scale played in the key of C.

Now lets superimpose the two scales in different keys.
Blues Scale:
G Bb C Db D F G Key of G
C Eb F Gb G Bb C Key of C

Country Scale:
G A B D E G Key of G
C D E G F C Key of C

There are 12 notes in the chromatic scale:
C C# D Eb E F F# G Ab A Bb B C
When you get to the 13th note, the pattern repeats one octave up. Each octave doubles the number of vibrations. There are exactly 100 cents between each note in Equal Temperament, or 1200 cents in an octave. Imagine the 12 spaces between each of the 13 notes in the scale above having 100 cents each between them. In just intonation, the number of cents is varied to make nice clean small fractions like 1/2, etc. This is done to make the chords sound good. Chords sound horrible with exact Equal Temperament.

Now look at the notes above and consider that when you changed the key, each note played about 500 cents higher. This was changing the key, not the scale. Then look at the harmonica layouts in different keys. The proportion of the notes to each other is the same. You should be able to see that you play the harmonica in the same exact fashion when you change the key.

The blues scale has the following spaces between the notes in cents:
300 100 100 100 300 200
This pattern keeps repeating as you go up to the next octaves.

The country scale has the following spaces between the notes in cents:
200 200 300 200 300
Same thing! The pattern keeps repeating as you go up to the next octaves.

For all it matters, look at the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C
200 200 100 200 200 200 100.

The different scales break up the rythem in a certain way that give them what is described as Bluesy, Country, Awesome, or any other kind of experlative you want to describe them with.

Of course, I could give you cites and scales to alternative tunings that would give you the same notes without bending. Don't try this! Don't switch positions looking for the same notes on another scale. Stick to the same positions and bend the notes as prescribed to retain that same experlative sound regardless of they key you are playing in.

Dan


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danielbernard13
Member since Mar-9-06
76 posts
Oct-01-06, 04:08 PM (PST)
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4. "OK it is not that important"
In response to message #3
 
   You can see in another forum on this cite that the boss went round and round with me about how the positons and theory are not going to make you a better harmonica player. I just got off another forum on yahoo where I was read the riot act for saying that understanding positions was not critical to good harpin'. I told them:

"Most of the greatest harp players that ever lived played one position 95% of the time and couldn't tell you what position it was. That didn't mean they were playing by ear. It just means that they didn't care. On the other hand, Beethoven was deaf, and he could think out a great number of instruments and arrange them. He could probably teach you a thing or two about the harp without even knowing what a harmonica was.

With 12 notes in an octave there are 792 possible scales playing seven notes. That doesn't take into account that most of you use scales with varying numbers of notes or even that there are other cultures that don't use a 12-note octave."

So lets get practicing.

Dan


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kevin j
Member since Nov-5-03
3 posts
Sep-05-07, 01:30 AM (PST)
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5. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #0
 
   cowboy up to country!


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Walt
Member since Nov-24-06
30 posts
Sep-05-07, 10:18 AM (PST)
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6. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #0
 
   Hi Nash,
The few diferences in the two scales gives it a bluesy quality. For example: In the blues scale there are two notes that are diferent compared to the country scale. The third one is flat(or a half step lower). This makes the scale a minor scale. Alot of blues is written in minor. The other diference is the "blue note" which is called the flat 5th note. It makes for a good passing tone to give it a bluesy quality. I'm going to suggest an experiment to you that I'm sure Dave might agree with. Play the country scale up forward one the harp on octave then come back down the octave using the blues scale. You can really hear the diference in the two scales. Plus you might notice that you sound a little like Muddy Water's harp player James cotton. He used it to start a few blues songs that way. Also, keep in mind that the trick to the blues scale is to pull it out when you want to sound bluesy. Alot of country blues are played with the country scale and they throw in the blues scale much like the experiment I explained to you.

have fun, that most important!!

P.S I have no idea what Dan is talking about either!! lol!


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nash
Member since Aug-23-03
13 posts
Sep-06-07, 05:03 PM (PST)
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7. "RE: difference in scales"
In response to message #6
 
   This is funny. I read this whole thread and didn't realize until I
got to Walt's response that the original question was asked by me, 4 years ago.
Dave's been trying to teach me scales for over four years. It's a
challenge for him since I'm....slow.

nash


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